tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post1002195969887106189..comments2024-03-29T01:46:51.442-04:00Comments on Lisa Nielsen: The Innovative Educator: A Break the Ban DebateLisa Nielsenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07759123507185453030noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-64923270650148569132012-01-24T09:22:37.897-05:002012-01-24T09:22:37.897-05:00Interesting exchange. I enjoy your blog and agree ...Interesting exchange. I enjoy your blog and agree that the limitations on technology and social media are holding back education. However, your reaction about whether adults need to coerce or control students is unrealistic. Coercion is a strong word but let's face it, there's an element of coercion in raising, educating and preparing a human being for life, even if you discuss everything calmly, provide choices, use "time outs" and all the current nurturant methods our society believes in. You only have to look at how resistant some adults are to learning new technology to realize that sometimes employees need to be "coerced" (i.e., teacher inservice no one would choose to go to) into trying something different. Yes, people want to be engaged in stimulating tasks but sometimes we all need a nudge to get on track instead of being passive. Perhaps manipulation is a kinder word than coercion and manipulation is something that people do to each other all the time, in a basic sociological sense.<br /><br />Also, this may be very 17th Century of me, but I do believe that we need to give students a basic background in content areas and sense of historical perspective. Individualized learning is a fantastic opportunity but I worry it could have the same effect as people who only watch Fox News or only watch MSNBC News--they are only exposed to more of what they already know and never use critical thinking, skepticism, or allow themselves to be exposed to things that upset, challenge, or excite them in new ways. School used to mean creating "well-rounded citizens"--doesn't it still mean that, despite squabbles over structure, delivery, tools, environment, and curriculum?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-32997739791324891182011-04-22T21:12:22.389-04:002011-04-22T21:12:22.389-04:00The type of school you describe is a school that I...The type of school you describe is a school that I dream of working in or creating. I've been increasingly frustrated with the status quo, testing, common core, race to the top etc. Growing up, I gave my all in the subjects that I was interested in. The subjects that I disliked made me hate school. <br /><br />I now teach math, the subject I hated most and I am determined not to give kids the same experience I had. For the the most part, I've been able to give my students a positive experience based on feedback from them and their parents. I've scrounged up computers, have begun to incorporate cell phones and have pushed the polices (banning just about everything) about as far as I can in order to make learning enjoyable and relevant. I give the students a certain amount of freedom by using learning contracts which allow them leeway in planning their week. The students notice the difference when they are taught in this manner and while I can't say I have 100% success which I don't believe will happen in a compulsory setting, teaching this way has been more effective that anything else I've done in 16 years.<br /><br />I say all that so that you know where I am coming from when I say this. I was hired to teach math & have a high stakes test that means a whole lot to a lot of people. Students will continue to be placed in my class regardless of their preferences. So ultimately, giving students choice in WHAT they learn is not withing my control. However, HOW they learn it is. I am setting up my class to give my students the ability to go at their own pace next year, which I'm excited and nervous about.<br /><br />So my question is this - is there more that I can do? Am I thinking like a twentieth century educator?Dave Hinrichshttp://www.hybridmath.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-72580675336821204502011-02-21T15:37:07.029-05:002011-02-21T15:37:07.029-05:00@Anonymous, I wonder if we’re going to have a gene...@Anonymous, I wonder if we’re going to have a generation of students suing schools for selling them a bill of goods, causing them undue stress, and anxiety, and not providing them, or allowing them, to use the tools necessary for success.<br /><br />As far as giving school credit for my cousin who works on College Sports (found out CBS bought them), my thoughts on that is that school always tries to take credit for our successes. I don’t own school any credit for my success. Like many others, it held me back. Taught me to dislike subjects, and forced me to do work in a non-creative way.<br /><br />I agree with you about giving kids more in K-12 what they get in college. Choice. Ability to choose class times. Option to have a light or heavy load. Ability to test out of a class and get credit for it. Yes. That makes sense.<br /><br />As far as the free schools/unschooled, you betcha. The way they show success is not by irrelevant test scores. They provide profiles of their alumni and they’ll blow your mind. These kids move on to do great things and they are happy and satisfied with their lives and feel successful. Do public schools do this? Nope!<br /><br />As far as kids in freedom schools, you should visit one and you’d see it’s all about supporting kids in their ability to own the learning. Unlike traditional school they are responsible for themselves. And, I’ll challenge your idea that everyone has to be well-rounded. We don’t. It’s good for those who want it/like it but not everyone does and that’s okay. Einstein, Picasso, Beethoven, Mark Zuckerberg, etc. etc. are hyperfocused on what they love. That is okay.Lisa Nielsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07759123507185453030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-69402437107047639892011-02-21T07:37:59.227-05:002011-02-21T07:37:59.227-05:00thank you so much for this post!
Beth Kappusthank you so much for this post!<br />Beth KappusAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10096174684563414969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-7021052511538735382011-02-19T15:15:11.972-05:002011-02-19T15:15:11.972-05:00Lisa, I think you pretty much nailed it with your ...Lisa, I think you pretty much nailed it with your response, but I have a little more to day in response to Barry's first four points:<br /><br />1."Do we have the staff and the training (not theoretical, but in reality) who have the skills and time to immerse this into the classroom?"<br /><br />The teachers might have more time if they could stop fighting the technology and instead embrace it and run with it. If the teachers don't know how to use the technology, then maybe they could learn from (gasp!) the students.<br /><br />2. "Part of the mission of school is exposing them to this so they know what (or what not) to study when they get older."<br /><br />If you want to expose your children to a different country or culture, do you drop them off there for a year by themselves, or do you take them for a week and show them a good time?<br /><br />Since when does "exposure" mean forced study every day for 13 years (as in math), and weekly tests of progress? How many days of math class does a person need before he knows he doesn't like/understand/want to understand polynomials or euclidean geometry? Real exposure would look like *offering* classes in different subjects, and letting students choose which ones to take, when, and how far. What if we only tested kids who want to advance in each specific subject? It would certainly improve test scores, that's for sure! Some people DO like math (I know, because I'm one of them). But we can't make everyone like math or anything else. And there is no need to try.<br /><br />3. "If educated adults can't control themselves, how can we hope kids to?"<br /><br />Were these adults not properly "educated" to control themselves? Did they miss the part of school that was supposed to teach them that? Maybe it's not possible to teach self-control. You don't need to be taught to pay attention when someone else is speaking, all you need is to care about what they are saying, and be engaged by the way they say it.<br /><br />I like how Lisa encourages technology use during her presentations. What a fantastic idea! If I hadn't had to worry about "sneaking" the technology when I was a student, it would have made a big difference in the amount of concentration it took to write a text under my desk.<br /><br />4. "Give TEACHERS the power to control student access based on their needs and skill." <br /><br />I agree with Lisa's response to this one too. Also, teachers have no control over the students' minds. If they doesn't care to pay attention to a lesson, then it doesn't matter if they have Facebook access or not. Daydreaming is all they need to keep them from hearing the teacher. If the lessons are engaging enough, then access won't take away from the learning. If the lessons incorporated the technology, then bonus! People are good at doing two things at once. I know I can email or text during a talk and it doesn't mean I can't hear what is being said. And I did it in school too.Vickiehttp://demandeuphoria.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-54881741647388598522011-02-19T14:40:47.317-05:002011-02-19T14:40:47.317-05:00Lisa,
Thanks for the reply. My response back was...Lisa,<br /><br />Thanks for the reply. My response back was too long for a comment so I crossed posted on my bog at http://plethoratech.blogspot.com/2011/02/to-ban-or-not-to-banpart-iii.html<br /><br />When a disagree with you, I don't do so fully, and know it isn't personal by any means.<br /><br />What fun is blogging if everyone always agrees with what we write anyway?Barryhttp://plethoratech.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-71485546469521796302011-02-19T12:01:45.815-05:002011-02-19T12:01:45.815-05:00It is so far beyond time for schools to stop wield...It is so far beyond time for schools to stop wielding policies that punish the masses for the potential mistakes of a few. Blocking social media is censorship. End of story. <br /><br />I work in a free-range media school, and we use facebook FOR INSTRUCTION! It is awesome! Find student testimonials above. We have surveyed students from other schools and have learned that kids in UNBLOCKED schools spend<br /><br />12% MORE of their Facebook time doing school work<br />8% LESS of their Facebook time sharing photos and videos<br />6% LESS of their Facebook time discussing music, movies, and books<br /><br />Still collecting data on this. Please help disseminate survey bit.ly/yfilter.<br /><br />Facebook is the perfect tool for teaching the 4Cs - creativity, collaboration, communication and critical thinking. Using it for instruction teaches students that social media is a tool for productivity rather than a distraction.<br /><br />These resources won't be blocked forever, and kids need to organize time management in the presence of social media - a skill best mastered early on.Michelle Luhtalahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11096958876629214135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-49868278170555980912011-02-19T11:59:21.638-05:002011-02-19T11:59:21.638-05:00(cont)I would like to say, that I could have foun...(cont)I would like to say, that I could have found my way to where I am today or even better, without the structure I had to deal with, but I can’t say that because wasn’t an option for me. In the end, I turned out all right (I’m happy enough and can talk to people on a personal and professional level). Maybe some of the “free-er” schools that you have blogged about will show some long –term successes. That would be a nice thing to see. But’ I’m not just a tech geek. I love music and art, photography, writing, and sports (not just football), and like to be well rounded. So make sure that the “free” kids can develop the self – discipline it takes to be well-rounded AND productive. I haven’t figured out if they will just find it on their own yet.<br />But again - I'm hopeful :)<br />Folks, coming from a technology standpoint: Don't let technology limit you and your work. It's there to service you and help you do what you do best, if it isn't you need to ask for it to do so.<br />If your district technology isn't beneficial to your teaching, then you need to open up talks with school administration, district offices and school boards (not only the tech folks, they are generally just doing what the policies in place tell them to do and the budget afforded them). And don't stop talking and pressing, change(s) won't come any other way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-8775213528701446592011-02-19T11:58:43.392-05:002011-02-19T11:58:43.392-05:00wm....give Patrick a break, :) ... this article is...wm....give Patrick a break, :) ... this article is a response to Barry. <br />If this education philosophy is even going to get a test run, then at some point you have to face the majority and get someone to listen to it. You can't just "put a capon" on everyone. :)<br />Lisa, as usual, the ideas are great. Obviously, there are obstacles. Bandwidth IS easy, if schools want bandwidth, they will find a way to get it. I've seen schools built and staffed in an "economic crunch". I've seen teachers laid off and programs cut during the same years that multi-million dollar auditoriums have been built. If you want something bad enough, you can find the money to fund it. Some-one try to argue with me that districts<br />don’t find a way to be “creative” to get things funded, please :)<br />I come at this debate from two sides: Education background with having parents in grandparents long embedded in the public system, and having done some teaching<br />on a higher level. I also come from the technology side. Also, I'm a parent. <br />The biggest fight is indeed the perception(s) of not just the administrations and government, but the general public and parents.<br />Also, you can never forget the "liability" factor that comes into play, and how sue happy people can be when unhappy with "the experience". (Not even taking into account<br />the disciplinary action(s) involved with the “cloud”- that may be a off-topic issue). Liability is a very real problem, however, and it shouldn't be overlooked or dismissed. (That poor substitute teacher in the computer lab from a few years back, isn’t .... I guarantee you.)<br /> I imagine that must like politics, the best place is somewhere in the middle of the extremes.<br />I agree with you on school experience: short of the people, I can't remember much at all from high school, much less middle school / elementary. College affected me the most - but the first two years seemed a waste of time. Once I got into my major though, it didn't seem like work, and I think that point touches on what you are referring to: The freedom to learn what you want.<br />On the other side, the kid that got hired at ESPN, probably had some "classic skills" developed in school that benefited him into getting on with that organization, and perhaps even help him still in the way he does his job and thinks about things, in general. Even though it may not have been "fun", it may have been worth it for him. College, helped me in the way I think, but I just can't remember.....how.... :)<br />I like what you are saying, but I'm not ready to completely "throw the baby out with the bathwater", if you get my drift. <br />Maybe if there was a way to just give kids more of say in k12...maybe through a higher education style, core / major type system, or hybrid, thereof...would<br />be a start / or a good middle ground.<br />(cont)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-31971743140330301272011-02-19T10:54:30.081-05:002011-02-19T10:54:30.081-05:00I applaud your frank and honest comments, Lisa. I ...I applaud your frank and honest comments, Lisa. I would add a couple more thoughts. I concur with wmckenzie that Patrick is "still thinking like a 20th C educator" and nothing says that more strongly than the notion that the power over students and learning will remain in the hands of the teachers. The stage is set; all the pieces are in place for independent learners to . . . learn independently! Students actually DO own the tools and the learning already, they just haven't realized it. Your responses and blogs point to this and show many ways to bring it about.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14288049019132047174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-37415995507735581872011-02-19T09:22:51.585-05:002011-02-19T09:22:51.585-05:00Lisa you are dead on. Patrick is still thinking as...Lisa you are dead on. Patrick is still thinking as a twentieth century educator, seeing limits and a finite set of resources. What he is missing is that once we open up education to the 21st century possibilities there will be an EXPLOSION of energy and possibilities that will totally blow away people with their heads still stuck in the Industrial Age. My short-term advice to you? Two part answer: 1) keep fighting the good fight to transform education, and 2) put a capon how much time you spend trying to get the Patricks of the world to see what you see....they will need to experience t for themselves once we get there. IMHO if they still want to argue against it once it has arrived, they need to get out of the profession and find something more last-century on which to focus their efforts....<br /><br />Sure there are practical considerations we need to negotiate in getting from here to there...and there's a huge institutional bureaucracy in our way...people who want politics and money and curriculum and standards to dictate the dialogue....but that doesn't prohibit us from opening things up for the good of students and our collective future. But while we're at it, don't let the push back drive you crazy. :)wmckenziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02325300451584499471noreply@blogger.com