tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post6026674142887207202..comments2024-03-19T05:14:54.748-04:00Comments on Lisa Nielsen: The Innovative Educator: I Am No Longer Willing to Let Traditional Schooling Hurt Our ChildrenLisa Nielsenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07759123507185453030noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-9438448492364076972013-04-25T11:08:28.022-04:002013-04-25T11:08:28.022-04:00I realize I am somewhat late to the party, but I&#...I realize I am somewhat late to the party, but I'm kind of surprised that the Sudbury Valley school, and schools that follow the Sudbury philosophy haven't been mentioned here. The Sudbury model meets all of the "what would happen if..." items, and is a radical change from all of the No Child Left Behind standardized model of schooling here in the US.<br /><br />When we trust our children, and give them the freedom to learn, they flourish. Peter Grey has written extensively on this subject in his blog on the Psychology Today website.Crofton Residenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716986911048218278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-23514202338413656342012-03-29T21:27:09.641-04:002012-03-29T21:27:09.641-04:00I'm wondering what grade you taught when you d...I'm wondering what grade you taught when you did the independent learning in the social studies unit? As a teacher at a small school, I teach classes to 8th, 10th, and 12th graders, and the older the students get the less I see them willing to get enthusiastic, even when I try to give them independence. You have to understand that teachers, to a certain extent, can only work with what they have. If kids have been conditioned to do what a teacher says and spit it back out on a test, after enough time they're going to be resistant to independence.<br /><br />Moreover, you claim that NY state becomes more oppressive, yet you were able to give students independence about what they study. I'm thinking you must be at the middle school level. I'm from PA and with the looming Keystone exams the "what they study" itself is becoming ever more constricted. Sure, I could try to bring up a topic in chemistry and let my students choose their focus in that unit, but when it comes test time and the things they focused on in that unit are, by random chance, overlooked on that version of the test and things they skimmed over the questions that are on the test, both my students and I are going to be in a pickle.<br /><br />As for all of your stuff on teachers, I do agree to a large extent, but I also think that teacher education programs need to chance. And the teachers who are successfully implementing these units of independent study need to share what they're doing and how they're doing it. I am one of those people who had the tools to be a doctor but chose education because I believe in its importance (and want to be part of the solution), but having gone through a public school system that was completely devoid of this type of learning and, moreover, never having had any trouble with mastering concepts based on this type of school system, it would be extremely helpful for me to actually hear a detailed account of what this freedom of learning would look like, rather than simply being told I should do it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-15434852428517520522012-03-29T21:13:14.983-04:002012-03-29T21:13:14.983-04:00This article gave me a lot to think about. I agre...This article gave me a lot to think about. I agree with much of it, but I also disagree with some points here and there. I will attempt to keep my comments short here.<br /><br />First is this: I realized that I agree with many things in here, and that the only reason I have not at least attempted them in practice is because of administrative and testing requirement. Would I like my students to have more freedom in what they're learning as it relates to my subjuct area (science)? Sure, I'd love it. But there's ever more emphasis on making sure students know exact bits of information for standardized tests (I live in PA, so Keystone exams are the tests du jour) that they won't remember a month later, let alone years. I absolutely think that relevant, self-directed projects would be more beneficial in the long run, even if it seems like students aren't "covering all the bases."<br /><br />I also don't necessarily agree with all the rule and expectations. I think students should be able to have more freedom in the classroom (provided they don't abuse it). I realized while reading this that I keep a tight rein on my students, even though I don't necessarily agree that it's entirely necessary, because as a new teacher and a young teacher, I don't want to be thought of as unable to control a class. I feel like there's something wrong with me when students are moving around and talking for me but sit quietly for another teacher -- but perhaps I should feel just the opposite.<br /><br />However, as many times as I've read this type of argument (I've been watching some recordings of Gatto a little bit at a time), I think it's a little too idealistic. Maybe this perfect system will work for parents who are willing and able to homeschool their children, but there are a lot of issues to work through on terms of a public school implementation.<br /><br />First off, as much as I love the idea of giving students more choices, there are always going to be those students who don't want to work hard at something academic. These same kids may work very hard to excel in athletics or some other area, but it may not happen in the classroom. Then again, we're losing these kids anyway, so really what harm can we do by giving them more choice? The only other caveat I would place here is that students should be required to follow their interests within a variety of subject areas -- they need to be informed about science, math, English, social studies, etc. and not just one single area, which is what some would choose to do.<br /><br />The other main issue I have with this is the fact that there's all this focus on students doing exactly what interests them under constraints that perfectly fit their personal desires ... but the real world doesn't work that way. Think what you want, we may not be producing factory workers, but we are producing workers of some kind or another, and most of them are not going to go on to work in environments that give them almost entire control of their day. They are going to be given certain tasks to complete with certain deadlines and be expected to follow them. They are going to work under certain rules whether this cramps their style or not. And many of those rules are there for a reason. I work in a lab that had to follow federal rules for laboratory practices because they involved products on the consumer market. Those rules were important, and even though I had absolutely no say in them, I still had to follow them.<br /><br />We need to recognize that as much as every student can strive to work in a position that offers freedom of expression and freedom of task, not everyone will. Even if we taught them all the skills they need to do it, how would our world function without people in all those positions who are filling very important yet personally contraining jobs that help our society run?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-4706992261795651542012-03-24T07:29:10.609-04:002012-03-24T07:29:10.609-04:00Thanks for your bold words. I'm quoting you in...Thanks for your bold words. I'm quoting you in a presentation on "Telling the Computer What To Do" today at technology conference -- not sure I like the word "doctrine" for this, however. I think of this phrase as a lens to focus our approach to kids using computers: Is the computer telling the student what to do, or is the student telling (or learning to tell) the computer what to do? The question of student agency--letting children make consequential choices -- is crucial, but in today's schools, most kids spend most of their limited computer time to responding flash cards or "multiple choice" questions (a phrase which demeans the word "choice").Fred Mindlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09862148685897378157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-66895044217030946912012-03-04T17:47:38.684-05:002012-03-04T17:47:38.684-05:00I thank you, Lisa, for your provocative and inform...I thank you, Lisa, for your provocative and informed blog! This post means enough to me that I blogged about it here:<br />http://taytayhser.blogspot.com/2012/03/differentiated-learning.html<br /><br />I've been reading your blog for awhile now and I admire your forward thinking and passion!Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03309932952235453461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-22050859295446273802012-03-03T13:37:32.876-05:002012-03-03T13:37:32.876-05:00Anonymous, this may be hard for you to believe, bu...Anonymous, this may be hard for you to believe, but 40 minutes a few times a week is not enough play for a child. It's a stark lack of playtime. I just so happen to host board game day at the public library and have been observing and learning about how child learn through playing board games. Board games are excellent learning resources. All the basic math is there, the language development, motivation, fun, community learning, everything. It is NOT a stupid idea. There is value in learning through play.Angelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-34980334236731604252012-03-03T10:19:12.712-05:002012-03-03T10:19:12.712-05:00Since we're never going to see any significant...Since we're never going to see any significant school reform--not in our lifetimes, and certainly not here in NY State where things have only gotten more oppressive--how about we just try to work for improvement within the system. In other words, giving children choice of what they study, how they learn and present the results of their learning, and who (if anyone) they work with. I did this as a student teacher for a single social studies unit, and the kids took complete ownership of their learning, and LOVED it. When the unit ended, they begged me to do it again for the next unit. And while I'm at it, how about I speak a truth that will make everyone here apoplectic: from my extremely limited observations, it seems clear to me what the biggest problem is in our schools--uninspired, distracted, not-terribly-bright TEACHERS. On the rare occasions I've witnessed smart, caring, creative teachers, the result has been vibrant, fun classrooms, with alert, eager, enthusiastic kids. But most of the time, I've seen the opposite: mechanical, flat, uninventive teachers--and kids drifting off into their own worlds. So the real question should be--how can we reform our TEACHERS, not our schools. Unfortunately, that will never happen in our current system, either. With salaries so low, the best and the brightest will never be drawn to the teaching profession in great numbers. Sure, the occasional person who had the tools to become a doctor or architect might choose teaching, but for the most part, the profession attracts mediocre people. With that talent pool, expecting school "reform" is like hoping to catch trout in your bathtub--crazily unrealistic. In short, I don't think we're going to find a way out of this situation any time soon. Anyone who thinks otherwise may be a good person, but they're not likely to catch any fish.Billynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-56247029248049143732012-03-03T08:56:00.536-05:002012-03-03T08:56:00.536-05:00My school already has free periods, scheduled regu...My school already has free periods, scheduled regularly throughout the week. The kids get to do whatever they want for 40 minutes. Guess what? They almost all pull out the indoor recess board games, and play. A handful might draw. One pair of girls likes to play hangman. In other words, this is a stupid idea. Kids love to play, but there's more to learning than that. Let's be wary of these extreme ideas--they're almost always deeply flawed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-51935629565062309422012-03-03T02:33:57.219-05:002012-03-03T02:33:57.219-05:00I am up trying to study, but feeling sleepy, so I ...I am up trying to study, but feeling sleepy, so I turn on the listening tool to have your blog read to me and as I nod away every second or so, I became alert suddenly to make sure that I was hearing what I have always known --- the awful truth about our school system. I know it and a lot more people are just finding out about it particularly after some parents have received the high school notice for their child to attend in the fall. What a mess this mayoral control has done to our children? Lisa, you really are letting them have it and I commend you and I have already established my blog with similar intentions to let the community of learners be aware of what’s going in the schools.<br />Blessings,<br />Audreyastewdenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12410248497160088624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-23701638719465957152012-03-02T23:16:35.298-05:002012-03-02T23:16:35.298-05:00Thanks for taking the time to reply. May your pass...Thanks for taking the time to reply. May your passion, time, and patience be infectious!TeaWithSoccernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-12865967688366867672012-03-02T16:49:14.301-05:002012-03-02T16:49:14.301-05:00Nancy, with all due respect, you underestimate kid...Nancy, with all due respect, you underestimate kids.<br /><br />You said, "Kids are kids, no matter what era they live in. They need guidance. They need help. They aren't in a position - yet - make their own decisions because the don't have the experience to know what they need."<br /><br />Babies are born with built in alarms that sound whenever they need something. Kids show you what they need. They tell you what they need. Teachers are responsible for the 6 hours a day that they have with the kids regardless of their messed up home life.<br /><br />I proposed 1 free day. Of course I think it will work for everyday schooling. But if we can get at least 1 National Public School Free Day, I think it will help put some light on what is possible for learning in freedom.Angelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-92142615013514793002012-03-02T11:52:32.307-05:002012-03-02T11:52:32.307-05:00I think that what we often forget is that the purp...I think that what we often forget is that the purpose of reading or writing is communication. Reading and writing have become the end goals in schools with little attention paid to the reasons reading and writing are important and that is to communicate and convey ideas and information, to learn things and to be entertained. In our lives outside of school we don't generally read or write just to read or write. I remember when I was in college, several professors in my education courses were fond of saying, "Grades K-2 students learn to read, Grades 3 and up students read to learn." Seems to be a bit backwards to me. Purpose should come first and then the reading comes quite naturally. Children learn to read independently when they are ready (just as they learn to walk and talk) and when they have a real reason to do so. The goal should not be reading and writing in schools, it should be facilitating communication in all it's many forms. From talking to texting and everything in between.Kellynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-85498406488557896922012-03-02T10:24:38.567-05:002012-03-02T10:24:38.567-05:00I understand the thinking behind "the educati...I understand the thinking behind "the education system was designed for the industrial age and that doesn't fit our current times". I just believe it's erroneous. <br /><br />Starting with Maria Montessori and moving through John Holt and others, many educators have theorized that public education needs an overhaul because it doesn't meet the individual needs of kids. On the other hand, public education hasn't changed a lot probably because meeting the individual needs of individual kids is time-consuming and expensive as evidenced by special education (PL 94-142 passed in 1972) which is based on the Individual Education Plan (IEP). Each identified special education student is guaranteed a "free and appropriate (not perfect) public education" (FAPE) through whatever accommodations and modifications are required in his/her case. It's a valuable but costly process that has created a specialized bureaucracy in schools and towns across the country.<br /><br />I am retired and currently working as an Educational Technician with at-risk kids. These students do not have the type of home life that provides opportunities for pursuing their passions and interests (except video games and hanging around town). They don't even have the type of home life that encourages reading or cooking (so as to learn fractions, for example) or building (geometry) with Mom and Dad or grandparents. <br /><br />One purpose of public education is to level that playing field as much as possible. That's a reason Maine provides laptops for all middle-school students. Another purpose is to provide a foundation in basic skills and knowledge. Kids are kids, no matter what era they live in. They need guidance. They need help. They aren't in a position - yet - make their own decisions because the don't have the experience to know what they need.<br /><br />The idea of a free day is lovely, but schools run 9-10 months of the year. Show me how this works for an entire year. And then another entire year. I doubt you can. And even if you could, the resources required to make it happen would be astounding.<br /><br />Blaming schools for society's ills is pointless. 6 hours per day (give or take) for 175 days (or so) is all schools see of kids. The rest of the time is spent at home or out-and-about. Kids who are on the edge of homelessness, or searching for a sexual identity, or living with grandparents because Mom and Dad are in drug rehab are unlikely candidates for appropriately pursuing their passions - in or out of a school building. Help schools, stop blaming them.Nancyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02768986281351213872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-91675981560554760422012-03-02T05:45:13.064-05:002012-03-02T05:45:13.064-05:00Nancy: "Informed & Literate" are cat...Nancy: "Informed & Literate" are catchwords long used by public educators to justify the factory model of education that destroys creativity, teaches youth that only adults know what's good for them, and treats the next generation that one Standard fits everyone. It's time for those of us who work with young people to admit that each person is individual enough to justify--no, require--an individualized learning experience. As Christians who live from a paradigm quite different than a humanist's paradigm, we must pay attention to each child's God-given inner gifting(s) and give each child room for that/those giftings to blossom.Chris Davishttp://www.chrisdavis.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-36415246742595125982012-03-01T21:34:41.118-05:002012-03-01T21:34:41.118-05:00Well, I suggest you walk into your next board meet...Well, I suggest you walk into your next board meeting and propose a Free Day Holiday for your school system as I suggested above. It's free, it won't cost anyone anything, but it will give educators and kids a break. Then, I would talk to the principals and find out if they are interested in doing it. Get one principal to agree and it's a homerun! Have a few parents, teachers, and kids blog about it or something, and you've got free publishing for your cause. Next thing you know, all the school principals will be wanting to try it.Angelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-82611404860975405652012-03-01T20:31:29.424-05:002012-03-01T20:31:29.424-05:00Another reference to school and factories - From E...Another reference to school and factories - From Eric Jensen's Brighter Brain Bulletin: "Out in the real world, people talk to other people at their jobs, at home and when they're out relaxing. Who ever thought that kids should be quiet, sit in rows and only talk when spoken to? The answer: someone who was training kids for solitary factory jobs."Mariaemma Willishttp://www.solimaracademy.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-82724039118219449532012-03-01T19:20:13.606-05:002012-03-01T19:20:13.606-05:00Angel, there are FOUR of us on my current school b...Angel, there are FOUR of us on my current school board that agree with you and me, FOUR out of eleven and we STILL can't get any headway.Lisa Cooleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395200368753029675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-27682732190236316992012-03-01T19:07:57.422-05:002012-03-01T19:07:57.422-05:00Thanks Lisa. I live what I'm suggesting. It ...Thanks Lisa. I live what I'm suggesting. It works! I'd like to see public schools make a huge shift toward child-centered learning centers.Angelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-82467572490121742302012-03-01T18:59:38.804-05:002012-03-01T18:59:38.804-05:00Angel, my point is only that adults can learn from...Angel, my point is only that adults can learn from kids just by paying attention. I understand and appreciate your call for a "free day!"Lisa Cooleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395200368753029675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-63092772099243142472012-03-01T18:57:01.991-05:002012-03-01T18:57:01.991-05:00Wow, is that what you think of your students, Anon...Wow, is that what you think of your students, Anonymous? That's really sad. You should try FREE DAY and see if that is what happens. You may be surprised. On second thought, maybe you should get a sub for that day. You'd probably be barking at the kids anyway.Angelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-78492366667767771102012-03-01T18:56:52.304-05:002012-03-01T18:56:52.304-05:00@Anonymous,
What is your point? They're doing...@Anonymous, <br />What is your point? They're doing that in the current oppressive environment of school.Lisa Nielsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07759123507185453030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-81880618111675160082012-03-01T18:52:00.776-05:002012-03-01T18:52:00.776-05:00And when there are kids caught having sex in bathr...And when there are kids caught having sex in bathrooms, smoking pot in stairwells, and beating up on each other, they're just kids being kids, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-24751580057013077602012-03-01T18:43:22.733-05:002012-03-01T18:43:22.733-05:00Lisa, your complicating it already with documentat...Lisa, your complicating it already with documentation. No documentation requirements for this game. This is FREE DAY for everyone. Just play, have fun, interact with the kids, and observe.Angelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-12519797756961683972012-03-01T18:36:51.505-05:002012-03-01T18:36:51.505-05:00Angel, I really like that idea. The concept of Reg...Angel, I really like that idea. The concept of Reggio-Emilia and the Project Approach has built in ways of documenting what kids do and talk about when they are in free play time. They listen in, write things down, video tape them, and then they make sure and observe the videos and talk about how to take their interests and create rich experiences out of it. That's for little kids, but there are more sophisticated ways of doing it for middle and high school students.Lisa Cooleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13395200368753029675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8318734518772387227.post-90048395093519434092012-03-01T18:25:01.533-05:002012-03-01T18:25:01.533-05:00Since everyone likes to play, especially kids and ...Since everyone likes to play, especially kids and the people who work with them, let's play a game. The game is called National Public School FREE DAY. I want every single school to participate. You can pick the day. When the kids arrive in the morning, tell them it's free day and they can do whatever they want all day long. They can go anywhere on the school campus, they can hang out in the cafeteria all day, it doesn't matter. It's up to them. Turn off the school bells. Now, I want all of the teachers and administrators to observe and give these kids whatever they ask for. How easy is that???? I can assure you that you will learn something more valuable to you as an educator than ever before. I am confident that this will be an eye-opening experience for everyone. JUST RELAX for one day and learn from each other. Be willing to see public school in a new light.Angelnoreply@blogger.com